Every Wheel Has Play: Time For The Shop?

"Raphael Orlove" (orlove)
02/26/2014 at 12:26 • Filed to: Baja Bug, CMRBB, Parking Lot Mechanic, rallycross

I posted this !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , but I wanted to open it up to your infinite wisdom as well.

I'm getting my '73 Baja ready for rallycross up in New Hampshire this Sunday and a quick check last night revealed that

1) my right rear brake drum is cracked and

2) every wheel has play in it

So, I'm picking up new brake drums tomorrow which shouldn't be too hard to replace, but the wheel play is troubling.

Assuming the worst, that means my bearings are shot, right? Is this an easy thing to replace (as in, something I could do on Saturday morning having never done it before) or is this something that I should be taking the car to the shop for?

Sadly, the only aircooled specific shop in the NYC area is full up with cars at the moment, so I would be going to just some import car garage for the fix.

many thanks,
Raph

[UPDATE]: I called the shop I usually go to and they said they'd take a look at it. The bearings wouldn't be a pain to fix, but getting to the bearings could be a problem. The car's old and parts might not be cooperative.

DISCUSSION (55)

CalzoneGolem > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:28

Your bearings will probably need to be pressed in.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:29

Just jack it up and spin the wheel, if it's a bearing, you'll hear a grumble grumble grumble noise.

quarterlifecrisis > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:30

You're on the right track thinking that it's bearings. Not having ever worked on a VW, I'm not sure if you'll need any specific tools to replace them or not. What I do know of VWs, is generally, they can't be that hard to work on. Now working on it outside in NYC, where you may not be able to zip over to Autozone or whatever cheap place fits the bill at a moments notice to pick up a replacement X or to rent tool Y...that's an adventure I don't know that I'd be too comfortable with.

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:30

Def not a Saturday morning fix, especially if you don't have your own press.

CalzoneGolem > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/26/2014 at 12:31

Make sure you aren't hungry first or you might mistake you tummy grumbles for wheel bearing noise.

505Turbeaux > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:32

bearings making noise? if not just adjust em out. If they were bad you would hear it. Pack them with new grease if you are in there deep enough. How bad is the drum cracked?

If you don't have anyone to mess with it this week let me know and I will come down from Maine and pit crew it right in the parking lot :)

RacecaR > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/26/2014 at 12:32

It has to be one of the worst sounds in the world. I hate hearing that noise.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > CalzoneGolem
02/26/2014 at 12:33

I imagine a shop could get this job done fairly quickly, right?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > CalzoneGolem
02/26/2014 at 12:33

Also make sure that there is not a crotchety old man standing near by, as that noise could just be him cursing you.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > RacecaR
02/26/2014 at 12:33

Yeah, my E36 did that to me.

Raphael Orlove > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK
02/26/2014 at 12:36

good to know, thanks

RotaryLover > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:36

Better change the bearings IMO. As suggested earlier, check to see if you hear something grinding when you roll the wheels separately. It's better to check now than to lose a wheel on the road...

CalzoneGolem > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
02/26/2014 at 12:36

Yup, any reasonably prepared shop could do this easily.

Raphael Orlove > 505Turbeaux
02/26/2014 at 12:36

the drum is cracked like crazy. I'll take a pic when it's light out, but it is serious r/justrolledintotheshop shit

CalzoneGolem > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/26/2014 at 12:37

This is getting more and more complex. No wonder my mechanic charges so much per hour!

DrJohannVegas > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:37

There is a Harbor Freight in Brooklyn. Go there and buy a small hydraulic press, some sockets to press with, and DIY. If my idiot friends in HS and College could fix Beetle wheel bearings, so can you.

Here's a video to give you an idea of what it takes. (Which isn't much.)

Alternatively, complain to VW and get them to give you a new old car.

tromoly > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:38

As many have said, get your wheel bearings replaced, and do so soon before we see the bug on /r/justrolledintotheshop

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:39

I mostly only work on cars with double tapered roller wheel bearings: adjustable, the way they should be. A quick edugoogle shows that that's what the Bug should have. Adjust/repack of tapered rollers all around can be done in a Saturday morning if you know what you're doing, pressing out and replacement of ball bearings not so much.

Raphael Orlove > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/26/2014 at 12:39

as I am often hungry and always crotchety, I am totally fubar'd

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK
02/26/2014 at 12:40

Maybe it is. The bug appears to have tapered rollers, so unless he's already trashed them by driving...

505Turbeaux > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:43

you are hauling the thing up, right? On the serious, I either have one or can get my hands on one and have the race installed and bring it down if you are in a spot, and do the wheel bearing adjustments. Just dont let that thing flip on my head :)

I have only been wrenching on air cooled stuff 25 years or so

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:43

Well, you're SOL.

Better LS swap it.

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/26/2014 at 12:43

I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to attempt a rushed repair in a parking lot in the cold that I had never done before and then immediately drive several hundred miles in it to a place where I am going to punish that repair via motorsport. Take it to a shop.

CalzoneGolem > 505Turbeaux
02/26/2014 at 12:44

I've got some wrenches, a hammer and beer. I'll come and help.

505Turbeaux > CalzoneGolem
02/26/2014 at 12:45

I think the beer would have to be bought for us, but I am down

CalzoneGolem > 505Turbeaux
02/26/2014 at 12:46

It's a long drive.

Mathnerd > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:46

As many have said. If the bearings are making noise they will need to be replaced. If no noise just repack the outers and adjust them and you should be fine.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK
02/26/2014 at 12:47

Valid point. The labor at the shop is typically what kills, and on the VW, it should take no longer than trailer bearings -simple as the setup is. Paying for little labor and a lot of peace of mind is probably good value for the money.

505Turbeaux > CalzoneGolem
02/26/2014 at 12:47

1:40 for me...alot more for you. Worth it for the rallycross watching.

Raphael Orlove > CalzoneGolem
02/26/2014 at 12:53

called a shop. They might be able to do it, the only thing they're worried about is when it comes to getting at the bearings, parts might be somewhat uncooperative. They've worked on the Baja before and are familiar with its ways.

CalzoneGolem > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 12:59

Right, and when was the last time these hubs were removed? The Nixon administration? You can save time and $ by removing the hubs yourself. I pulled the steering knuckles off my PT Cruiser and brought them in all the time. That thing ate bearings like I eat potato chips (a lot and quickly).

Takuro Spirit > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 13:06

Post that shit up, I'll upvote you to the heavens.

offroadkarter > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 13:10

It is amazing this car hasn't killed you yet, it seems like its rolling on hopes and dreams

Its an old car so bearings shouldn't be hard to replace. Have you jacked the car up and checked to see how the wheels wobble?

Bad bearings usually have a roaring noise going down the road that gets progressively louder as you drive along.

Honestly I don't think it'd be bad to replace them either way. Bearings are cheap, and for all we know your bearings are 100% original. Timken is a good brand, if its good enough to support the wheels on a 747 its good enough for a baja bug.

DailyTurismo > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 13:11

Play in the wheel bearings of an old car usually means they need adjustment, but if you rode of them too long they could have created groves in the races that may be problematic, but chances are you can just repack and readjust.

http://www.vw-resource.com/whl-brng.html

They are about $10/set and your local autoz'oreilly boys should stock em.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts…

Just do it yourself, you'll be happier and keep more money in your pocket. Just remember that after adjusting them, you should drive for a few miles and then recheck them. Me...I never re-check...but I have a death wish. Enjoy the rallycross.

evil2win > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 13:12

If the wheel feels lose it could be bearings, tie- rods, ball joints, or any combination of the afore mentioned. It's been a few decades since I've wrenched on a bug so I'll leave it to others to fill in the details. Better have it checked out. It's all part of the joy of owning a classic car.

DailyTurismo > DailyTurismo
02/26/2014 at 13:12

And by do it yourself, I meant repack and readjust, not replace.

Sethersm > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 13:24

Is there a big freakin' nut at the center of the rear drums? If so, IIRC 36mm. It will be tighter than the tightest thing you can think of. You will not get it off with the tools of mere mortals. They make a special box end type wrench thingy that you plug a 1/2" breaker bar into and the beat on the wrench thingy with a hammer. That might get it off.

A friend once had to take his bug to a place that works on semi trucks to get one of his undone. They ended up using the biggest humongousest TWO MAN air powered impact wrench to get it off.

BrtStlnd > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 13:25

Do you think there's any chance whatsoever that your car survives one rallycross session?

Raphael Orlove > 505Turbeaux
02/26/2014 at 14:00

Hauling? Nah, I'm driving up. I'm shooting on driving up to NH ( right here ) on Saturday and sleeping in the car overnight.

I called an import car shop I know to see if they can do the bearings this week and they said they'll let me know this afternoon if it's doable or not.

I called a VW shop and tomorrow they'll have two new rear brake drums I can buy off of them, but they won't be able to do any work on the car.

So I guess this could go a couple of ways.

Best Case Scenario: the import shop fixes the bearings tomorrow, I pick up the brake drums, swap them myself (I don't need any special tools for that, right?), and drive up to NH in tip top shape.

Worst Case: the shop can't work on the bearings, and somehow I can't swap the brake drum myself. Maybe I don't have replacement bearings or whatever. I'll still drive up in the hopes that somebody might be able to help me out.

In either case, it'd still be awesome to see you at rallycross! You got a helmet? Want to drive the Baja with me? You can still register to enter!

Raphael Orlove > IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK
02/26/2014 at 14:02

hah, these are pretty much my thoughts exactly. I've gone down that road before (valve adjustments followed by a marathon drive up to NH) and I'd rather not do it again.

Raphael Orlove > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
02/26/2014 at 14:03

I hope to someday learn how to do all of these relatively simple repairs myself, but this week doesn't seem like the week that I'll be doing that learning.

Raphael Orlove > BrtStlnd
02/26/2014 at 14:04

I have a positive outlook. I mean, the last time my car broke twice on the way to rallycross, so I figure once it gets there it should be fine.

Raphael Orlove > Sethersm
02/26/2014 at 14:15

Here's what it all looks like at the moment

Kinja'd!!!

Raphael Orlove > 505Turbeaux
02/26/2014 at 14:16

oh, here's a pic of the cracked drum. Must be a new addition thanks to some pothole, there's no way I didn't notice this.

Kinja'd!!!

505Turbeaux > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 14:20

You are a freaking champ to drive up and sleep in a Beetle overnight, I have done it for sure, but your blood gets thick driving an air cooled rig in winter long enough. Many a trip across country and back for me doing similar. If I were an hour closer I would say come hit my couch and we can wrench on it the night before, but a 2 hr trip Sunday morning probably doesn't appeal.

I don't have my own helmet but can lay hands on one easy enough that fits. Thanks for the offer, it may happen for sure. I can try and get my reg in tonight before it closes. I might just walk in though for the extra $20. Pretty sure my SCCA card lapsed a few years back.

Contrary to the advice here, you do not need a press to do the bearings, just a drift, a hammer and a freezer (or a secure snowbank for the night). Freeze that new race before install and it will drift right in with no damage after you beat that old one out of there. To get after any of this or the drums requires no special tools, just depends on how deep your box is on sockets. That drum is driveable too it just isnt going to stop you well on that wheel. I have an air cooled boneyard right up the road from me if you need anything else.

I will pop you over my info in a bit, raphael@jalopnik.com works for you?

Raphael Orlove > 505Turbeaux
02/26/2014 at 14:28

Wait, what's a drift?

Also, my socket box is rather slim. 10 to 18 mm

and raphael@jalopnik.com is right, yeah, shoot me an email

505Turbeaux > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 14:32

will do, but I will finish up on this thread first. A drift meaning something to bang on something else. Socket could be a drift, punch could be a drift. I have some brass drifts that are actually made for the banging on sensitive things with. This img should sum it up - socket as drift

Kinja'd!!!

Sethersm > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 15:35

Ouch, that isn't going to be easy. Definitely a job you'd want to pay someone else to do.

Sethersm > Sethersm
02/26/2014 at 15:40

Here's the tool you hammer on:

Kinja'd!!!

And here's a bit different type of tool which since your drum appears to be separated from the hub, may not work:

Kinja'd!!!

Raphael Orlove > Sethersm
02/26/2014 at 15:54

oh jeez. yeah, this may be a professional job. I've called a shop to do this work for me, so hopefully it will be ok before heading north. That said, 505Turbeaux offered to come over to NH and help out if needed!

Sethersm > Sethersm
02/26/2014 at 16:09

I'm bored and at work, so I looked it up. 217 ftlbs is the torque spec for the axle nut. Add in years of rust and...

Raphael Orlove > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/26/2014 at 16:29

SWAP IT WITH AN LS FROM ORBIT

IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Raphael Orlove
02/26/2014 at 17:56

Kinja'd!!!

Raphael Orlove > Sethersm
02/26/2014 at 20:12

217 ft lbs sounds like a high number

exootep > Raphael Orlove
02/28/2014 at 11:34

This is not a hard process, but you need access to press to complete the work. You'll also want to replace all the shims and washers in the assemblies as well. These bearings can be completely shattered in the wheel and aside from the play, you won't hear it or know it until your wheel comes flying off. I own several beetles and have had the unfortunate case where this happened. All 4 wheels take a single person 2-3 hours to complete. P.S. - buy GOOD quality bearings... the ones you get from the parts store up the road are Mexican crap and shatter if you stare at them too long. The German manufacturer, "FAG", makes really good ones and the expense is worth it unless you like packing bearings with grease.